“How long does it take to fall in love? 15 minutes if you get the question right. I don't mean romantic love, I mean the fact that I can be who I am with you”.

This conversation with Peter Block will stay with me for a very long time. I have been deeply moved by the depth of his views, the intensity of his presence, the quality of our exchanges, and by his empathy. What a gift! I want to be a relational activist too! (it is the theme of Peter’s next book).

Now, imagine if more of our conversations at work were like that: with our manager, our team members, our colleagues. How different the corporate world would be!

But hey, what's stopping us from doing it? Forget change management, overcome the appeal of like-mindedness, systems change and strong leaders. Let’s connect instead around the future we want to create. Here and now, with anyone who shows up. Let’s dive in the experience of community: “honoring our connectedness, our collective nature: ‘I don't exist without you and without us’”

Peter Block is an author and citizen of Cincinnati, Ohio. He is partner in Designed Learning, a training company that offers workshops designed to build the skills outlined in his books. His books include Flawless Consulting (which 4th and augmented edition has just been released), Stewardship, The Answer to How Is Yes, Community, The Abundant Community, and An Other Kingdom. Peter is a founder of the Common Good Collective, and is part of the Cincinnati Common Good Alliance. His work is in the restoration of the common good and creating a world that reclaims our humanity from the onslaught of modernism.

Curious to know more? 

Read Dare To Un-Lead: The Art of Relational Leadership in a Fragmented World. 

• Peter Block can be found on pp. 28, 96, 104, 263

• Community – or communities of intent and impact – is covered in pp. 245–60; about, 245–46; belonging and, 260; definition and characteristics, 246–49; return on investment (ROI) and value from, 257–60; social capital and resilience from, 253–55; vs. tragedy of the commons, 255–56; in the workplace, 252–53, 271–72

• Communities of practice (CoPs), pp. 249–52

• Community-based cooperation, p. 259

• Community leadership, p. 194.

Learn about Peter Block on his Wikipedia page

Find out more on Peter’s website PeterBlock.com

Get in touch with Designed Learning, Inc. They offer training and consulting in Flawless Consulting and Community: The Structure of Belonging or Leader as Convener.

Read/listen to Community: The Structure of Belonging by Peter Block. It is available as an audiobook 

Watch Peter Block speak about the Six Conversations that matter to build community among citizens

Watch this 2018 Weaving Influence webinar about Community with Peter Block

Read any book by Peter Block, you won’t waste your time :)

Curious to use these ideas in your work? Get in touch with me!

• LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/celineschillinger

• Instagram instagram.com/dare_to_un_lead/

• Twitter twitter.com/CelineSchill

• Mastodon https://mastodon.social/@CelineSchill

• YouTube youtube.com/c/CélineSCHILLINGER

This podcast is produced by Lagor Services - Business Podcast Experts www.lagorservices.com

TRANSCRIPT

Note: go to the bottom of the page and download the PDF of all resources if you like.

Celine: It is tempting to think that more leadership or some kind of improved leadership will help us and our organizations work better. But what if leadership was part of the problem instead of the solution? What if our understanding of it only maintained principles of the past, which no longer serve as well?

That's what I explore in my book, Dare to Un-Lead, and today in this podcast. Join me and my guest, a person quoted in the book or in tune with its values, to learn from them what it takes to un-lead and succeed together.

Welcome to the 11th episode of the Dare to Un-lead podcast, where we wrap up a series of conversations about important topics covered in Dare to Un-lead: the book. From a long experience in the corporate world, I came to realize that leadership is broken. It doesn't serve human needs, nor business needs very well.

And for more than a decade on the field, I have been experimenting with different ways to achieve collective performance. That's what is reflected in the book along the three values of liberty, equality and fraternity, and in the follow up conversations in this podcast with people I'm inspired by. You may recall that the first conversation in Episode one was with my mentor and friend Myron Rogers, who also wrote a beautiful Forward for the book.

And one time several years ago as we were working together on a project that relied heavily on community building, Myron brought up one of his favorite books; Community: the Structure of Belonging by Peter Block. I was intrigued by the title. Could a feeling, belonging, rest on a structure? Could we architect a community?

And if so, how? And so I delved in the book, and guess what? It immediately became one of my all-time favorite reads as well. My copy of community is all dog-eared, underlined, highlighted, full of scribbles in the margins and so on. I went back to it many times as I wrote Dare to Un-Lead, and not just for chapter 11, which deals with community engagement.

Peter Block helped me understand many things about leadership, the ideology, it conveys its connection to fear, fault and impotence; the continuum between the corporate world and society at large, and more. And I went on to read several of Peter's other books and love them too. But Community still holds a special place in my heart.

And so, after I dared to write and ask him to be my guest for this episode, I couldn't believe my luck when Peter said yes. Woohoo! 

Peter Block is an author and a citizen of Cincinnati, Ohio. He is a partner in design learning, a training company that offers workshops designed to build skills outlined in his books.

His books include Flawless Consulting, whose fourth and augmented edition has just been released; Stewardship, The Answer to How is Yes, Community, The Abundant Community and Another Kingdom. Peter is a founder of the Common Good Collective and is part of the Cincinnati Common Good Alliance. His work is in the restoration of the common good and creating a world that reclaims our humanity from the onslaught of modernism.

Thank you so much, Peter, for generously accepting my invitation. I am thrilled to be in conversation with you today and to invite our listeners to join us. Welcome.

Peter: Thank you, Celine. Thank you for naming your book Dare to Un-Lead. I agree. We're suffering from a terminal illness, which is called leadership. So thank you for inviting me, and happy to say yes, happy to be here.

Celine: Oh, awesome. Peter, I'll start with the first question I ask all my guests. What is your art? Can you describe the professional practice you do in your unique way, or that is unique to you and what led you to it?

Peter: It's a hard question, and the older you get, the harder it is to answer and the more urgent it is to answer. Because, if you value your time, then you decide, what am I good at? And then why don't I pay attention there and let go of all the things I'm interested in? And so, it's a great question. 

For me, it turns out, I think I have a gift of translation. I can take ideas that originated in unlikely places like philosophy or poetry or psychology or Gestalt therapy or the inner game of tennis or existential philosophy. And I can bring them into the marketplace. I think I discovered I can do that in person, and I discovered in a second half of life, in writing. 

I also think one of my skills is that I'm not angry at the people I'm there to serve. I don't show up. When I do get angry, which I do often, and I also always know when I'm angry because I make my point for the third time, then I leave the room. 

I think no matter what people do, who they are, it's never useful to judge them. It's never useful to have something in mind for them. Our aggression takes very subtle forms, such as advice, recommendations, questions that have an action step implied in them, such as, “what do you plan to do when you get out of school?”, “When are you going to give me a grandchild?”, “When are you going to move ahead?”... All of those are forms of aggression outward. 

And there's aggression inward too, which is self-improvement. All of us have ideas of what more we should or might be. And to me those are the forms of leadership that you're arguing against, in your wonderful book: role models. 

That's a long answer to a question you did not ask, but you're welcome.

Celine: I love it. As we're talking about community, and belonging, how would you define those terms?

Peter: You know, words are useful for their ambiguity. It's the struggle to understand how to customize the term, and make it ours, that's useful. And so community means everything. Especially when it becomes popular, it has almost lost its utility. I've been connected to words that once they became popular, I had to abandon them. Empowerment: I wrote a book on empowerment. When I wrote it, it was an unacceptable term. It was too mmm. 

Community to me is the experience of honoring our connectedness, our collective nature. “I don't exist without you and without us”, and we don't have much of a language for it. 

We have very sophisticated language for the individual, for individualism. Even the church went towards the individual: “my relationship with God”, my relationship with you. Psychology: Freud was radical in 1900 when he felt that. His innovation wasn't his theory. It was that he thought that an individual was worth that much attention. Until he came along, we didn't believe that it was worth spending that much time on a person. But then, that's all we have now. 

We don't have a language for the collective community. You know, we have funny terms, at least in the US, and we're the most individualistic culture I've ever been in. I didn't know that till I left it and went around the world and I realized that people in the US are the slowest learners because we're deeply individualistic and we're very exceptional, we think.

Community is a language, and an experience of the fact that we're in this together, like it or not. Belonging means that there is a place where I can be myself even if I never find it. It's a difficult promise, but I may never find that place that's my own. But belonging means that it's there and I get glimpses of it from time, and it's very, very achievable.

My own experience is, how long does it take to fall in love? 15 minutes if you get the question right. I don't mean romantic love, I mean the fact that I can be who I am with you. That's what individualism does not trust.

Celine: That's fascinating. A community can be stuck. What does it mean? What is a stuck community?

Peter: It's a community that's uneasy with strangers. 

The purpose of a community is to welcome strangers. Hospice, hospitality... In traditional times, a stranger knocks on your door. It could be your worst enemy. And you say, come in. Can I feed you? Would you like to spend the night? And then when they leave your house the next day, you can plot their demise, but you welcome them. 

In the modern world, the individualism world, the leadership world you talk about, we're afraid of the stranger. 

There's nothing unkinder to productivity, democracy, than like-mindedness. Save me from like-mindedness because I'll never be surprised. Like-mindedness is the longing for certainty, for predictability. 

Every time I do work in the world, when I used to show up, the first thing I would do is break people into small groups with people they knew the least, because I knew that was the only condition under which they would get what they came for.

If they stay with people they're familiar with, they'll never be surprised and they'll leave exactly the way they came. And what’s the point? What's the point of being together if my life isn't changed? What’s the point of a vodcast or a podcast if somehow, something doesn't happen between you and I, Celine, that I never thought would possibly happen?

In some ways, our task is to be surprised. Even though you have a set of questions.

Celine: :-) I'm over prepared as you know, but I've been longing so much for the opportunity to ask all these questions! And I have probably a million more in my head. One more question maybe, about the stuck communities and leaders, and leadership, and the negative aspects of it. Why do we crave for strong leaders? Why do they appeal to us so much, Peter?

Peter: I think it's an escape from the anxiety of freedom. It’s the wish not to be accountable. 

To be born gave me an invoice that I'm afraid I'll never repay. That's why I cry. Every baby cries. Why don't they laugh when they come out of the womb? You'd think they'd be relieved at last, but they don't. They cry their first breath. 

I just think it's an escape from freedom. Escape from choice, escape from anxiety. It's the belief that I could only be happy or satisfied surrounded by things that are familiar, predictable, certain.

That's why to un-lead is to say, as a leader, I'm not here to meet your expectations.

“You're not the kind of leader I had in mind”. And your response to that is “I know. I'm not your mother. I'm not your father.” 

We've designed human resources, leadership as good parenting. That's what you're trying to unwind and what you're giving your life to. The parenting is the refusal to be accountable.

How can I create a future I want to inhabit, if I'm waiting for someone else to hand it to me? That's why we need each other. That's why what you're advocating is to look horizontally for who I want to be with, not up or down. And, when people complain and say, oh, I have a lousy leader, my response is why are you creating that person in that way?

And I believe that the listener creates the podcast. It doesn't matter what you and I say, we're giving the listeners an excuse while driving to think about what matters to them. If we're successful, they'll tune out for a good part of this podcast and have their own thoughts. “Oh, I missed that!” – No, you didn't miss anything. We showed up. Celine exists in this world, so you can have your own thoughts. And if you remember what she said or what Peter said, well, you'll get over it. 

I believe that I've “raised” a whole bunch of children. I didn't raise them. You know, children raise the parents, students create inmates, run the prison. Listeners create the podcast. Once you believe that… Is it true? I don't know, but it's useful. It takes me somewhere. 

What you're doing in your work is you want to be a participant of people moving somewhere, but somewhere that they have in mind and they need you. 

We need each other to have the courage to step into an unpredictable world. That's real leadership. Everything else is management. And that's why I love your title, Un-Lead. Stop Leading. You're not here to meet their expectations. You're here as a stance for the larger purpose. If not, anything goes. 

Somebody gave us a dollar or a franc or a Euro, and we have to deliver on what they gave it to us for. Now, how we do that is a thousand ways.

Celine: May not be a popular message to sell to executives in the corporate world today.

Peter: I think they're waiting for it. There are no more restrained, imprisoned people than senior executives. Nobody learns more slowly than people at the top. So if you do a two day workshop for people in the middle, you need a three day workshop for senior executives because they're so programmed.

They don't even write their own talks. I don't know about France, but in the US if you do a town hall meeting, you have PowerPoints and a rehearsed speech, and if you ask for questions, they are filtered by a communications specialist. 

I once gave a talk at AT&T and they kept passing in little cards for questions. And I said, what are the questions you didn't ask me? after it was over. He said, well, we got two or three that said, “where the hell did you get this person?” They were screening out questions that they didn't want to ask. 

That's why the executive is in prison. They are caught between the investor, the board who cares less about what they are and what they're doing, the employees and the customer. And so what you're doing is liberating top management. Now we have to be with them, with love and support, but I have zero expectations that top management will play any real role other than reclaiming their own humanity, claiming their own selves. And then they're learning how to un-lead, they're learning how to affirm that. 

What do you think about what I just said Celine?

Celine: I love every word of it really. I mean, it opens up so many possibilities. Now, will people be brave enough to catch them?

Peter: Well, bravery is required of you and I, but where does it lead us?

Celine: Maybe stepping into the discomfort of working with people who do not share these ideas necessarily? 

I know that, for example, I'm reluctant, I'm quite resistant to going into some circles where I feel my ideas are not necessarily welcome; where they're looked at with suspicion. I know I should make this effort with love, as you said, with openness, without judgment. And it's hard.

Peter: It's hard. Why is it hard, you think? You have the will and the strength to do anything. You've proven that. Or you wouldn't have written a book with that title. So why is it hard?

Celine: It's hard for, well, I'm alone, I'm an individual, I'm just one person. They are part of their power structure, they are powerful people…

Peter: That's a construct you're expressing. I'm asking you, because you're speaking for all of us.

What you just said is something we've constructed – because they are feeling every bit as alone with each other as I am with them. 

I had to get used to being in a room with people that were mad at me for the stance I was taking. And it wasn't speechy, it was just that I broke them into small groups. I started by running sensitivity training back decades, a lifetime ago. We told all people, the content of these five days we're spending together is what happens in this circle. And so, what you learn, how you move this forward, is up to you. Silence. Eye contact. They were really angry. What? What? What?

They would yell at me, “you!” “punk you!”. I can remember being up against the wall. And they're all standing up expressing their deep disappointment that their company has wasted money. And I worked for the company. What do I do with that? It activated every doubt I'd had from my first cry. I knew what I was getting into and I was right.

And at some point you realize that their response has nothing to do with you. Nothing to do with me. And they're waiting for us to come into the room, tell them there are choices among the things they thought they believed in. And accept them.

Basically the message we bring as leaders, partners, community members, is “What we thought was true, we made up”. If that's so, once I get over the disappointment, then I'm free to construct an alternative story, an alternative narrative. So what we are doing in the world is inviting people. To create an alternative narrative that they want to live into. Is it true? I don't know, but it might be useful. I don't want to argue about anything.

I made a living working for corporations. People asked, why? Well, for the same reason that Willie Sutton in the US robbed banks. You know why? Because that's where the money was. I wanted to make a living. So I went where I could make a living. Exxon paid me a salary. And so there we are, and then within that world, we're looking for people looking for us.

I don't want to be in a room with people that were forced to listen to me. I want to be in the room, but I just assume if they are in the room, they chose to be there. 

Because people know how to get out of anything. Everybody's dog ate their homework. It's not my fault. Everybody's children had a birthday today. Everybody's family members are in the hospital. Everybody, traffic was horrible. All right? [If] people don't want to be there, [they find ways to opt out]. 

So the fact they're in the room, I take that as an invitation. Now, how do we show up with them? We can't decide that there's something wrong with them. Otherwise, we don't belong there. There's nothing wrong with them.

Celine: You mentioned the word invitation several times. Why do you say leadership is convening? Some would say leadership is about decision making or envisioning the future, or whatever other words, but you say it's convening. What does it mean?

Peter: It means that if I care about outcomes, I care about performance, I care about delivering the promise I made to get that euro in my pocket, in our pocket, it will only come from people's relationship with each other; from workers’ with each other. It’s what's essential to all outcomes. 

I used to work with a utility company and they loved storms. They loved it when the lines were down. I said, why do you love that so much? He says, because hierarchy doesn't matter. I don't care whether you're the boss or the president, if I tell you to pick up that line or hold that you do it. That's when real peer relationships deliver the future. That's why leaders need to confront and engage peers with each other.

It's not simple, because I'm used to competing with my peers. From first grade. I don't know about it in France, but in the US first grade, they're no longer my friends. They're my competition. And if I wanted an A or a B, somebody had to get a D or an F. By design. If the teacher had a high performing class, the teacher was in trouble. The boss is in trouble, you know? 

That's why to convene is to engage people. Create the word community, belonging, connection, relation, peers with each other. That's the most powerful thing I can do. That's the most powerful way I can use the leverage and power that I have. I don't know if it makes any sense.

Celine: It does, but when you lead a company of a hundred thousand people, how do you convene all these people? It's too big.

Peter: You don't, so you convene within reach and you decide how you want to show up whatever room you're in. And if you're at a town meeting, at a water cooler session with 40,000 people, luckily they won't all show up. But even if it's virtual, you break them into small groups.

Nobody can touch a hundred thousand people or 5 billion people. The idea that the buck stops here is a joke. The buck doesn't even get to you at the top. Now, you have a job to do, you have promises to fulfill, but every time you're in a room, you need to say, “How do I engage these people to be accountable to each other?” Not accountable “to me”. 

Failure is always an option. And stop all this masculinized adolescent chit chat.

Celine: You speak about the small group. I remember my surprise when I read, probably in Community, that the small group was the unit of transformation, because I was having big hopes for large-scale change. So how do you move from small group to systems change?

Peter: Exactly. Margaret Meat, that's her quote. Fidel Castro had 93 people to start his revolution. He said all he needed was 11. He was overstaffed by 80. 

Systems thinking is powerful. Systems change is an illusion. 

You don't have an impact by doing things at scale. Scale is a defense against transformation. Because as soon as you take something to scale, you're doing the same thing over and over and over again, which means nobody has to imagine or create anything.

Now, if you want large system change, then you find, you confront, engage people in rethinking what they are up to, and then you aggregate that and let them find out what other people are doing. You don't set up a program, you don't set up a competency model. 

This happened in the eighties in the US when superior cars were coming from Japan. There was a 10-15 year period when employee involvement was taken seriously, when we thought we needed our employees. We broke them into small groups. They were called quality circles.  

I worked with Ford Motor Company, and it was interesting. It was hard times, and so the top managers were brought together and they said, well, you gotta get rid of 25,000 people. They did. And then they called the president in and they said, we don't ever want to do this again. He said, why are you telling me? They said, because the way you're running this company, the way we're run, it's not working. And they started employee involvement, a quality circle movement that turned that company around. They aggregated, but every group had the assignment of figuring out: “What can we do to make this thing work better?” And they were paid to do that. 

I have to think about the nature of our interdependence, but I don't want to act on that. I don't want my strategy. Put the blueprint down. I need a blueprint for how you and I are gonna spend this hour together. Anything more than that is an illusion. It's manipulation, it's marketing. 

Don't have a PowerPoint deck and let it cascade down like warm water from the Hawaiian waterfall. Okay? Stop that. If you just can entertain that thought, then it takes you somewhere. 

Well, aren't there certain things we need to be consistent about? Yes – we need, we are making a promise to the world and that every time people come to your podcast, they need to know that they're gonna be made uncomfortable. And be cared for. They'll have a chance to think for themselves. You have to make sure everybody has that. 

But how you do that, you're going to make it up every time you don't know who you're dealing with. And that's life.

Celine: I once had a manager who gathered his team, of which I was a member of, and who said to us, “What I need from you is order and discipline”. I didn't say anything. I just looked at people, and saw a few of them nodding and saying “Yes, sir. We need order and discipline for sure”. Should I have said anything? 

Peter: Yes. You might have inquired, and said “Why is that important to you? What are you concerned about? What do you see in us that would lead you to make that request? Thank you. I'll think about it”. 

He might have said, “well, can I count on you, Celine, for order and discipline?” And you would say, “I need to understand what that means for us. So I, it's not a commitment I can make to you right now, but we're here for the same reason. And the fact that you're concerned, I trust what you see, then let's keep talking about how we do something about what you're concerned about because your concerns matter to me.”

Celine: What an elegant response. Elegant and clever. I wish I had thought about that.

Peter: Me too, I have 20 instances, which I wish I'd thought of. I can only say it now, when nothing's on the line.

Celine: It's hard to be a change agent from the inside because you have all this performance management system, all those processes, all these control mechanisms, and you internalize control as well. It's not easy.

Peter: Yes, we have internalized it. And the word change agent is a little presumptuous.

Does that mean I have something in mind for you? Then you've never raised a child. If you think what you had in mind for that child had anything to do with who they are, look again. Okay? Thank God! That proves to me the existence of God as the children did not turn out in ways that I had in mind. And they have forgiven me for all of my guidance and molding behavior, mostly.

And so, I think the change agent is our participation in patriarchy. That language, “change management”. I would never call myself a change agent. I may be a stance for a world that I believe in. I'm happy to be an activist, and the book I've just finished writing is about relational activism.

Activism is now thought of as people in anger, waiting for someone else's transformation. You really are waiting for the president of France's transformation. Really? Give the guy a break. He took the job. I don't want it. So what and why treat him as if he's important? He's not worthy of being the headline in the news every day.

You're a stance, you're an advocate. You are a possibility that enters the room every time you show up. 

But the idea that “I'm a change agent” – no, I'm a participant in creating an alternative world. I want to imagine what this company could become. And I want to join in wondering what customers [might enjoy], what all the things we stand for, whether it's a government or a school [might improve]. But we run them in ways that are hostile to our intentions.

What you've been doing all your life is confronting people to whether what they're doing is aligned with what their intentions are. If you say, what am I trying to do, consulting or something, what am I trying to do at this moment? It has to be a stance or an expression of people living out their own intentions.

I trust my faith. I'm not optimistic, but my faith is that people, given a little bit of breathing space, will live out their intentions and their intentions will serve us all. Sometimes they won't. And that acknowledges the existence of evil. There's evil in the world, I got it. So what do you do with evil? You see it, you call it evil, and then figure out how to create an alternative.

How is this going Celine?

Celine: It's going great. And it makes me think that it's somehow comfortable to have someone to blame. Be it the president, the CEO, the manager, et cetera…  It’s comfortable, right?

Peter: Short term. It's like an addict finds short-term comfort in long-term pain. In the short term, it gets me out of the moment to have someone else to blame, but it leaves me feeling helpless . And that feeling of helplessness is not good for my mental health. It's not good for my well being.

So, in your terms, if you say why you want me to unlead, what do you want me to pro-lead? Well, it's confronting people, with their help, with giving them an alternative to their helplessness because ultimately it leads to violence.

Celine: And what about relational activism? This book you are writing about?

Peter: I'm trying to integrate what we know about small groups, relation, community, with concerns, common good that we have in mind, and we come together on our concerns. 

We all care about raising a child. We all care about being safe. Paris has a mayor who thought of a 15 minute city, which means that whatever you need, you can get there by a 15 minute walk. It's a world within reach, and we agree on that. We care about our health, we care about ending isolation. We care about aesthetics. So why not use our group methods to solve those problems instead of the traditional dominant business perspective? 

But let activism be a form of connecting, not a form of demanding. Let activism be where you and I decide we can create a world together and we don't have to wait for anybody else, that we can do whatever we can to create an hour that matters together. Now. It's all we got. And then pray that somebody will know what to do with this silliness. 

The relational is trying to change the nature of activism and make it affectionate. 

When we people come together as activists, to protest, protest the government… You guys have been upset about having to work a year longer, right? You have everything going for you and yet you don't want to work a year longer – and God bless you for that. But you're waiting for who to decide that? 

And so why don't we, when people gather, why don't we break them into small groups? Why don't we say, “Thank you for coming. I know you're here because you want the government to back off on the economic necessity of extending [blah, blah, blah]. Would you break into small groups and discuss? What are you doing to contribute to the problem that this thing was supposed to solve? What are you doing? What are we doing? What doubts do we have that anything will make a difference? What forgiveness is required of us at this moment? What gifts do we have that come to bear to solve the problem this thing was supposed to solve? 

This is relational activism. Why with these people ? Because they showed up! And why don't we make that the form of protest gospel?

The gospel is a term for the news. Why don't we construct the news ourselves? That's the dream. That's my dream. Luckily, I'm not burdened by being reasonable or practical.

Celine: Peter, this is, uh, this is an amazing conversation. I could go on for hours, but I need to respect your time. Is there one more question I did not ask and I should ask? 

Peter: They all come to mind, and I just appreciate doing this with you.

The point is that there's a space in this world for you and I to have this conversation, and you're doing something about it. You're out there, you still have a, a world and, and you're powerful because you're one of the people that you're speaking to. There's not in you an ounce of arrogance or righteousness.

There's a lot of pain and frustration. I get that. Or you wouldn't write a book. Nobody writes a good book because they're feeling good. You write a book because you're tired of talking to a therapist and you say, well, let me write this crap down and get it out of my system. And the fact that somebody published it, well that's...

But anyway, I am so grateful to be able to support who you are and what you're doing in the world. That's the point.

Celine: Thank you, Peter. That was a wonderful conversation. 

Peter: Yes, it was.

Celine: Thank you. So grateful. Thank you so much. People will find all links and references in the speaker's notes. That was a wonderful gift. Merci beaucoup.

Peter: You're welcome. Take care. You too.

Celine: Great insights. Thank you all for listening. You'll find more info in Dare to Un-Lead, the book. And all links in the podcast episode description. 

And now what else? Action! To explore further and apply these ideas to your own context, reach out to me celine@weneedsocial.com. Let's un-lead together!

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