I began my journey as a change agent quite by accident, in 2010, when my unsolicited letter to the company's CEO suggesting greater gender and cultural diversity triggered a mobilization of employees joining forces to make change happen. The unexpected outpouring of positive energy blew me away. I discovered that people I thought I knew could adopt very different behaviors, simply by experiencing a change in the conditions in which they work. A bureaucratic hierarchy generates certain actions, a leaderless network united by a common cause generates others. I had the feeling that I had discovered a hidden treasure: the power of collective engagement. 

What I saw, I could not unsee. I read more, searching for knowledge about networks, human motivation, change activism, digitally enabled communities. And I set out to create spaces where I could apply these new ways of working to create business value. It was not easy. The resistance was enormous. The hostility of most of my management was obvious. I almost quit and became bitter. That's when I met Susan Scrupski.

Susan has had many lives. She has been a successful young executive in the advertising industry, an influential analyst of the tech world, an activist against domestic violence… In 2012 Susan set up Change Agents Worldwide: a network of progressive and passionate professionals who collaborate on changing the world of work. That network became a lifeline for me when I joined, early 2013. There I met brilliant minds and generous people who, from literally all over the world, keep inspiring me to this date. 

Susan Scrupski is a fighter who impresses me with her courage. A woman who has very directly experienced the violence of patriarchy, and who has never given up. She is a talented storyteller, a visionary, an ally, a dear friend, and I am thrilled to have a chat with her in this episode of the podcast.

Curious to know more? 

Read Dare To Un-Lead: The Art of Relational Leadership in a Fragmented World. 

Susan Scrupski can be found in Dare To Un-Lead on p. 275 -- but the whole book owes a lot to her

Change Agents Worldwide can be found on pp. 71, 76, 86, 141, 289

Gender Inequality in the Workplace is explored from p. 134 through 139 

Diversity is addressed throughout the book, and in particular:

• Cognitive diversity, 186–89;

• Diversity and inclusion (D&I) initiatives, 131–32; 

• Increasing organizational tolerance for, 109–10; 

• Integration and, 161–63; 

• Movement for at Sanofi, 13, 63–64, 69–72, 94–95, 111–12, 116, 141, 163, 176, 179, 230; 

• Networks and, 160–61; 

• Radical diversity, 78; 

• Wisdom of crowds and, 182. 

Learn about Change Agents Worldwide here https://changeagentsworldwide.com/ and on Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/chagww/ & Slideshare https://www.slideshare.net/chagww 

Read Will Storr's The Status Game: On Human Life and How to Play It: On Social Position and How We Use it (2021)

Read Jess Hill's See What You Made Me Do: Power, Control and Domestic Violence (2019)

Read this blog post by Stowe Boyd: “Self-Reflection and The Power of Narrative” (Feb. 2023)

Read this article by Tracy Brower, PhD: “Empathy Is The Most Important Leadership Skill According To Research” (in Forbes, Feb. 2021)

Reflect. Your worst managers were women? Read this: The bias that drives 'catty' workplace conflict (BBC, March 2023)

Support this non-profit: Victim Focus https://www.victimfocus.org.uk/ 

Curious to use these ideas in your work? Get in touch with me!

• LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/celineschillinger

• Instagram instagram.com/dare_to_un_lead/

• Twitter twitter.com/CelineSchill

• Mastodon https://mastodon.social/@CelineSchill

• YouTube youtube.com/c/CélineSCHILLINGER

This podcast is produced by Lagor Services - Business Podcast Experts www.lagorservices.com

TRANSCRIPT

Note: go to the bottom of the page and download the PDF of all resources if you like.

Celine: It is tempting to think that more leadership or some kind of improved leadership will help us and our organizations work better. But what if leadership was part of the problem instead of the solution? What if our understanding of it only maintained principles of the past, which no longer serve as well?

That's what I explore in my book, Dare to Un-Lead, and today in this podcast. Join me and my guest, a person quoted in the book or in tune with its values, to learn from them what it takes to un-lead and succeed together.

Welcome to The Dare to Un-lead podcast, sixth episode, or should I say "Le numéro six" for our guest today, who's very fond of France! As you know, we're here looking at key topics addressed in Dare to Un-lead: The Art of Relational Leadership in a Fragmented World, the book. We looked at the context and the widespread leadership crisis in the first two episodes with Myron Rogers and then Stowe Boyd. Episodes three to five examine what freedom brings to leadership. Seeing systems sets us free, Jeff Boudro said. Change agents are walking a fine line, Lois Kelly said, and Lee Bryant offered ways to create autonomy at scale.

And today it's time to talk about the second value that I believe is constitutive of successful leadership today: equality. 

Not egalitarianism but equality. It's not about ignoring differences between people, nor about enshrining those differences by the way, but about overcoming the relationships of domination and submission that abound in our workplaces and that are so detrimental to collective performance. And to talk about this, I invited Susan Scrupski, to whom I have a deep admiration and gratitude.

She is a woman with a thousand lives. After a spectacular successful start in the advertising industry, followed by some personal setbacks, Susan reinvented herself as an influential analyst in the tech world. She then set up in 2012 Change Agents Worldwide, a network of progressive and passionate professionals who collaborate on changing the world of work. That's where I met Susan, and from there starts my eternal gratitude towards her because that network has been a lifeline for me. 

Susan didn't stop there, of course, that would be too simple. She went on to contribute her skills to the fight against domestic violence through data, stories and film. South Dakota where she spent several years revealed her as a photographer, and now Susan is beginning her Upteenth life in Texas. I can't wait to hear what happens next.

Susan is a fighter who impresses me with her courage. A woman who has very directly experienced the violence of patriarchy and who has never given up. She's a talented storyteller, a visionary, an ally, a dear friend, and I'm thrilled to have her here today. 

Susan, welcome, bienvenue.

Susan: Oh, Celine, that was such a wonderful introduction. Thank you so much. I mean, I'm flattered. Thank you.

Celine: Well, thank you for being here. The very first question I ask my guests is about their art, but you suggested the word superpower instead. So what is your superpower, your unique ability to perform in a certain way to achieve your objective?

Susan: Awesome. Yes, I asked you if I could change that to ‘superpower’, because I think that throughout my life – and you're right, I'm like a cat with nine lives, right? I always land on my feet and reinvent myself – I think that what I have been able to do throughout my professional life and even in my personal life, is to treat everyone equally.

You know, as we are going to be talking about equality: I have never seen a difference between the very big deal CEOs who I had to interview in the nineties, and had to interpret what they wanted to explain to the market, to the people that are so underprivileged and so invisible and unseen.

I think my superpower is that I have that skill of being able to have empathy and to be able to see someone right and try to understand their motivation and what their needs are. I really think that if you look at every single thing that I've ever done, I think that that's really why I've been successful, and I think that's why it's taken me to places where I ordinarily wouldn't have been able to go based on my born status in life.

Celine: I said you're a storyteller. Where does this skill come from? How did you develop it?

Susan: You know, I hate to admit this, but I really do: I'm of the camp that writers are not trained, writers are born and I've just always been a writer and every single episode of my life and every single thing that I've ever really accomplished, like the big step change movements, is a result of something I wrote. 

Now, I'm not the greatest writer in the world, but I'm an authentic writer. I think storytelling has just always been part of my life. It's always been from the time I was a child writing short stories for my second grade teacher all the way throughout... certainly in tech. So, yes, it's just been part of my DNA. It's not anything I ever learned. As a matter of fact, one of the things that I tell people is that I never took a writing course. I never did. I've never taken a journalism course. I mean, I don't know the mechanics of writing, really...

Celine: I have found writing extremely empowering as well, when I started writing my blog. But you go several steps beyond me because you really share your personal stories, which I don't.

Susan: Well, it takes a level of confidence and courage, like you said, to be able to put that stuff out there. Celine, you know, I have not published my most inner secrets publicly. I mean, I've gratefully been happy with the handful of friends who've supported me, on writing some of that stuff, but we'll get to that later in your questions. One of the answers I have relates specifically to the ability to tell those stories.

Celine: I was talking about the blog – my blog started in 2013: I was invited by a colleague of mine to put down stories and ideas on a blog, and that's about the time we met, when I joined the change agent collective that you had founded just a while earlier. What was your intention when you created Change Agents Worldwide?

Susan: So, in those early days of what I'll call “the social web”, where Facebook just came online, LinkedIn actually had been around, but people weren't really leveraging it in the way they do today; in those early days of social, everyone who had an interest in the embryonic, philosophical base of changing the world for the better with technology – and there were so many of us in my demographic. You know, I'm a little bit older than you. We really believed that this technology would change the world for the better. We really did.

And I saw there was a massive opportunity to connect individuals in the professional world who shared the same values regardless of where they were. So my talent in those days was being able to pick out the star performers in the market just based on their social footprint. When I was introduced to you, all I had to do was see what you were actually publishing and what you were saying and where your values would lie and if you would be able to fit in essentially with what we were trying to build.

The intention with Change Agents was to create a new model of an organization that looked like old school consulting, but it really wasn't. It was a way where each individual could be empowered – just as you're doing today —, empowered to create your own brand, your own assets, your everything that's unique to you, however, it would be under this umbrella of the same values that everyone else shared. We were looking for an economic model that would make that work. And we got pretty close. We actually didn't do too badly in the beginning.

I'm thrilled. I mean, every person that I know who is a part of that change agent network is still a superstar in my opinion, and now most of them are performing at scale, in the same way that we really wanted them to. So, yes. That was my original intention.

Celine: It was a very original model gathering consultants, people working on their own already, and internal change agents. Right?

Susan: Yes. That was what was so unique about it because since we did share the same values, we didn't have that tension between buyer and seller, right? We had people with the same values who wanted to achieve a higher goal, that sort of higher purpose, and they knew they could learn from each other in ways that would accelerate that ideology and that vision.

So, it was absolutely unique and there were some of the service deliverables that we created with change agents that, still today, I haven't seen anyone replicate in the market. I know you asked, were we ahead of our time? The answer is, absolutely.

We were really pioneers in this whole “future of work” movement because we were doing these things. Think about it. We were doing this before the pandemic. Right? We didn't email anyone, right? It was fun. I still am super proud of Change Agents.

Celine: [although we did that in] 2013, it is a design that can be very successfully replicated by companies today already, and in the future certainly as well. It is an agile and fluid way of gathering people independently of the organization they belong to in order to create value together in a very interesting format. What did you learn from this experience?

Susan: I learned a lot about motivating individuals. Again, remember, no one was an employee in this company. Everyone was working of their own volition, and I had to literally sell my vision in order to get the support we needed to move forward. So, I learned a lot about – I don't wanna use the word leadership because your book explains why leadership is terrible – but, but acting. Acting in a way where you can balance the wants and needs and in some instances, the egos and the aspirations and the humanness of individuals to band together to drive toward a goal. I learned a lot about that and I'm super appreciative of it, because it made me a better person.

It made me a better leader, I gotta use that word, but by example. I think the reason why it succeeded is because all of the voices in the network were leaders. So there was no leader, there was leading, and everyone was leading with their strengths. And I feel like that's a model for the future.

Celine: And very interestingly as well, this was a global non-company, a global group, right? Gathering people across very different cultures and time zones, etc. And it didn't matter really.

Susan: It did in some ways, and I'll tell you that, remember the timing on this? This was before the 2016 election. So before things got extremely polarized in our politics, it was before Me Too. It was before Black Lives Matter. It was before a lot of these cultural shifts. 

One of the rules, if you can recall, that I had, was in the network and in the community and in the conversation, we wouldn't allow any talk about politics, sex, or religion. Do you remember this? And there was a little bit of pushback on that, but if you really think about it, especially when you see where we are today, now you understand. Now you know why. 

Because once we start, if any of the individuals – and remember, I knew all of them. It was me, understanding who everyone was implicitly. I had almost like dossiers on every change agent and I knew their backgrounds, I knew their politics, I knew their passions on a cultural level, and there was no way if we went into some of those areas in the Change Agent Worldwide network, we could have stayed together and been supportive because there are some lines that have to be drawn and I didn't wanna draw those lines. So, you can see why it was set up that way. I'm not sure if it could work today. I don't know.

Celine: Super interesting. I'd love to delve into some of the topics addressed in chapter six of the book, which is titled; Can There Be Equality at Work? You addressed it a little bit earlier, but this chapter speaks of various aspects of inequality; and how that hampers good collective work. It is illustrated by my own experience as a woman in the workplace. And I know this chapter resonated particularly with you; that's what you said. Why?

Susan: Well, I'm going to answer the question first. Why did it resonate with me? It literally jumped off the page. As a matter of fact, here, I've brought props. I've got it right here because , when I read that Celine… You know the success that I had in film. Remember, I did a documentary, we didn't talk about that yet, but when I did my documentary, I recognized the power of storytelling on a wide scale, on a massive sort of platform where you can get across your views.

And when I read that, that one paragraph about your personal experience, I thought, this has to be a film. This has to be a film. It's the same feeling I had when I did my documentary, because what I really do believe is that women – let's just talk about women right now – women who have been oppressed, need to tell their stories. 

They need to, and you know, we all have them. We talk amongst ourselves about our stories. But when I saw that, I thought, let me just veer into this topic because I spent a lot of time learning about, the patriarchy and misogyny, things that I didn't know anything about until I started working on domestic violence. 

What I came to realize is that it's not men who are the villains and the enemy, it's the system of patriarchy. And that is where our stories need to be told to the sensible men that are just oblivious to what we actually go through. And I know there are some great films that are out right now. One of them is nominated for the Oscars: Women Talking. I don't know if you know this one. 

There are many, many men, if they only knew what it's really like, I think that they would change their point of view and they would be a lot more empathetic toward the struggle. So that was why that chapter resonated with me, because I thought those are great stories. I feel like you have to tell it and I know you have more.

Celine: Exactly, that's what I was about to say. I told you, Susan, there's a part of the stories that have been edited when I wrote the book and worked with the publisher because they didn't really fit and others that I'm just not ready to tell. Maybe later, we'll see.

Susan: It's hard.

Celine: It is.

Susan: It is hard. It's hard.

Celine: And, you're right, it's by sharing stories, experience… and yet I find it sometimes hard to be believed when I share some of those stories with my close ones, my dearest male friends, my husband, I find a level of disbelief, like “how is that possible? Really?” It's only when their daughters or sisters or wives get hit by patriarchy very directly, that then things become tangible for some of them. 

We need to add something that I think is quite important: patriarchy is not just maintained, perpetuated by men; it is also by women.

Susan: Absolutely.

Celine: We all do that at certain levels.

Susan: Yes, absolutely. And I'm so glad you brought this up. Yes. I mean, I've been guilty of what I'll call sexism. I'm not sure I would buy into a strict subservient role for women. But I definitely have examples of me seeing something that I thought or said through the lens of sexism and it's bad.

So, these issues are systemic, right? I started thinking yesterday about this, it's almost like an ism. It's like patriarchy-ism, just like communism, just like socialism. Just like anything, ‘Hinduism’ for example, you know. It's a backdrop in our society that just sort of gives us all of these, this overlay and through which we have to navigate the world. And men, a lot of times, because they're literally – especially, let's talk about white cis men – born into privilege and advantage. They don't know any better. 

There's a wonderful podcast by David Foster Wallace, a famous literary person from the nineties. My kids love his books. He talked about a story about two fish, have you heard this? And the one fish comes in, the older fish is swimming by the younger fish and he says, how's the water? And they keep swimming and they look at each other and they say, what is water? You get it. And that was his point. The men that we know in our lives, whom we love, who are good people, all of the men we worked with and change agents, they're great people, they're great dads, they're great fathers, but they don't know they're swimming in water. We see the water. We know that the water exists. 

I also wanted to talk about equal rights and opportunities versus egalitarianism, or equality in a way that doesn't make sense. And I wanted to mention a book that I did put in the show notes, which is Will Storr’s The Status Game. What I have learned about this, and I've come away with this massive introduction to the worst of patriarchy in terms of violence against women, and the professional work that I have been enlightened as to how sexism actually impacted my career, is that we're not the same. 

Sameness is not equality. And you mentioned this in the book as well: you have skills that I don't have. I have skills that you don't have. We're not saying that you and I should be equal, neither should we be totally equal with men if men are better at certain physical things. Okay. Let's just recognize and celebrate everyone for their individual strengths. But as far as equal rights and opportunities, that's where we take the fight to the streets. That's where the revolution has to begin. 

Celine: Have you seen things improve along the years? Are you optimistic?

Susan: I think things will improve with the future generations. That's what I think.

I haven't seen a lot of improvement, to be quite honest. I've seen some, and certainly, I mean, for instance Harvey Weinstein was sentenced yet again yesterday for 16 more years. That's progress. So we are seeing some progress, but when you talk about systemic change in terms of this system, this ‘ism’, I haven't seen a lot of it because I still see it every day, and I know you do too.

We still see it every day. 

Celine: Yes, we do. There was a study released in France recently showing that young men convey, in a bigger proportion than older men, sexist ideas and cliches. The authors of the study attributed that in part to porn culture. So, I am not even extremely optimistic about the younger generations changing things radically for the better.

Susan: Yeah, it's tough. There's so much in terms of influence now on social media and the way that the culture just spins out [and makes us unable] to predict how people will react. So I don't know. From my own personal experience, I do see it with my children and their friends and the conversations they have, the books they read, the movies they watch, but again, I could be in a bubble, so, yes, I don’t know. 

Celine: What should, in your opinion, leaders – and maybe all of us – pay more attention to in order to support, expand, increase this equality among people, at work in particular?

Susan: There was an article I just saw today on Twitter. It's a historian on Forbes, I'm going to read it after we're done, and it's about how empathy is the best leadership quality. I know we're talking about “not leading”. But if you lead with empathy, or if you are empathetic, I feel that is really going to be so important going forward. Real empathy, not empathy and listening through a filter, based on your own hidden agenda. Really having compassion and seeing the individual and understanding: how can I create an environment where this person can be successful and they can work through some of their own internal self doubt? I feel like that's a skill. That's what leaders need to know for the future.

Celine: It seems that many of them believe they are empathetic already, and don't realize at all the shadow they cast onto others, for example.

Susan: Yes. Because of their place and their power and privilege in, whether it's a hierarchy, whether it's in the family… you take your social dynamic and… 

You talk about women, women are just as bad, and in some ways worse. The most brutal brush ups that I've had professionally have not been with men. It has been with women, and I don't know how often you talk about this, but one of the things that I've read in the feminist literature or in the stories that I've read around this topic is that, it's been so hard for women to compete that when they do compete, and I know you mentioned this in the book, they act like men, but not only do they act like men, they act like bad men. They act like the worst men. Right? 

It's extremely unfortunate and how we can change that, I don't know. I mean, just look at the voter records here in the United States and who's voting for whom. I mean, you can see that it's not...  I keep trying to explain, the problem is not men, it's patriarchy and it's the oppression and being able to have equal rights is really what we're after. I know, I'm just rambling.

Celine: So, do you think men and women are capable of working really well together? And if yes, what does it take?

Susan: You know, in my experience, I do. I have worked really well together with men. 

I remember, you actually brought it to my attention, one time we had a board meeting. Do you remember this? We had our first board meeting for Change Agents, and it was just me and five men . And you commented, you said, Hmm, it looks so stark in this photo. But my comment to you was, yeah, one of me, five of them, I'm more powerful than they are, you know, it takes five of them to deal with me :-) Right? And then what was cute about it is that they all chimed in. They said, yeah, she's absolutely right. 

So, I have worked really well with men and I find men are easy to deal with, in business because they seem to just cut right to the chase, what their agenda is. Most of the time they don't have that inner voice that we have because we have to be so careful that somebody's gonna stomp on us. I just feel if you're a confident woman, it's easier sometimes to deal with men. With women, a lot of other factors come into play and it's unfortunate, and that is a podcast in itself, I think.

Celine: Yes, that's true. So Susan, when a young woman, a young professional woman comes to you and asks for advice, what would you tell them?

Susan: I would tell them to read your book. Celine. What do you think I would tell them? I would tell them, don't be intimidated. Just don't. Just be an advocate. You are your best self-advocate. 

One of the things that has empowered me throughout my life is to really take a moment and reflect: “okay, I know I'm in a really bad situation right now, however, it doesn't mean that I'm incompetent. It doesn't mean that I am less worthy. It means that this is not my time. This is a bad time and I'm gonna move through this.”

And what I do is I look – you know, all my little ‘vignette’ short stories – I think back on the things that I have achieved and I summon up that courage, that ambition and that strength to move through something that's bad.

I mean that if I had to tell a young professional anything, I would say, do not be intimidated and rest on your laurels. If you've earned that crown, if it's something else you've done in your past, put that crown on right now, and move through it. You just have to. You just have to, because otherwise they're out to destroy us, and it can't be done if you have that inner [strength], that inner voice. Yes, that's what I would tell them.

Celine: If I were to ask the question to myself, I would recommend building a network outside their workplace, outside their company. And that's precisely what Change Agents Worldwide enabled me to do so wonderfully. That creates portable competencies and friends and supporters and allies. That empowers you because then you don't rely exclusively on your employer for credibility, for recognition, a sense of self-worth, et cetera. So that would be my recommendation. Build external relationships as early as possible in your career.

Susan: I'm so glad you're saying this.

Celine: It's too easy to forget.

Susan: I think back, it was actually here in Austin – I'm in Austin, Texas again. I moved back here – I gave a talk, a lecture with a friend of mine who worked for Indeed, I think he's still at Indeed, to a class at UT Austin, Texas. It’s a big school. And I said the exact same thing. I said, listen, build your network right now. Every person you know in the university, who's your friend, that's your database. That's the foundation upon which you will grow your career. And for most of us, certainly in my demographic, the way that anything ever happened, it's through someone we knew.

It's very rare that you're gonna get that Hollywood divine moment where somebody is going to discover you, even though I kind of did that with Change Agents, but that was rare. But most of the time, if you really want something in your life, it's going to be someone you know who's going to help you.

So, it's building those relationships. I'm still working on that, but it's a skill and I do, I absolutely agree with you. Agree with you a hundred percent on that. 

Celine: Susan, we're coming to the end of this conversation. I said in the beginning, I admire you for your resilience.You've been through a lot, through your life so far, highs and lows. Where do you find the energy to cope? Where does your resilience come from?

Susan: Well, I've been thinking of writing a book called: The Happy Narcissist. I mean, it is really this sort of self-confidence. Listen, I'm in the worst situation I could possibly be in right now, but then I just have to laugh about it because I've been in amazing situations. 

My life has taken me to places that I could never, never have predicted when I was younger, so I don't know. I don't know where it comes from. There might be a spiritual thing to it. There might be that I feel that I'm protected in some way in the universe. I don't know what it is. I don't, I try not to let the bad things bury me.

I really do. I really just try to move through the bad times and recognize when I'm at a high, when I'm in a moment that is kind of unbelievable, kind of a pinch me moment that this really happened. I also recognize, okay, this is temporary and, you know, enjoy this for the moment, but this is not the rest of your life. This is a highlight and you should write about it, but tomorrow could be a terrible day. So it's just that, that ebb and flow of life, just being able to regulate your progress on your own personal journey. 

I mean, we're all the star of our own biopic when you think about it. Just know that you're the leading character and you can play that role any way you want.

Celine: You talked about the power of writing. Recently you discovered the power of photography as well, right?

Susan: I did. Photography really saved my life out there in South Dakota. You know my story. It was a healing journey that I really had to take to learn who I am, what I really care about, and how I can make my way in the world.

I had not had time throughout my professional life to do that because I was raising kids, getting them to college, you know, that whole thing. But by that time in my life, you know, I'm in my sixties, right? I needed that time to reflect. I kept finding myself in these beautiful, these amazingly gorgeous scenes, and I don't really even know, – I'm confessing this now on a podcast – I don't really even know how to use a camera, but I do know a beautiful scene and that photography in combination with me... 

My favorite quote about South Dakota is, It's 77,000 square miles of ego death. It teaches you, it humbles you. When you are out in the middle of nowhere with nothing, you are nothing but, there's a shred of like an atomic connection to the rest of the world where you are now a blade of grass, you are now a cloud. You are just in the middle of this vast expanse where there's not a human being in sight. It's extremely humbling and it did a world of good for me.

It made me a better person. Photography was the gift that, I guess, channeled through what the rest of the world could appreciate.

Celine: I love that we are ending on this note that speaks about art. Art is in the subtitle of the book, The Art of Relational Leadership. It speaks about connection, it speaks about the death of ego, this humility, and all these are extremely important qualities and enablers of good work. I love that it's ending on this note. 

Susan, what would you say to someone who hasn't read Dare to Un-Lead yet, apart from “Read it”?

Susan: I've been thinking about this, and I really thought that what I would recommend for everyone who listens and who's a fan – you have so many fans now, which is great –, is definitely: give it to your colleagues at work. But my instinct is, they're just gonna think this is too hard. They're [just] going to think, I love these ideas. 

I think the best advice I could give is to give it away to every graduate, every individual, female, male, non-binary, every single individual who is graduating, whether even high school, college. 

This is the blueprint for the future. They can build it. The younger generation, they can build this, they can see, “yes, this is the world I want to live in”. You give them prescriptive advice on how to do it.

I feel like it may be too late for our generation. I hate to say that because I know you have a consulting career, but the younger generation, even Gen X, even people who are coming up now, I would say: get this into the hands of everyone who really, really wants to aspire to make a big change in the world.

That's what I would recommend for sure.

Celine: Oh, thank you, Susan. It's been wonderful to speak with you. I will post of course all links below the podcast for people to find you, to read what you recommend them to read, to watch et cetera. It's been a real, real pleasure and I'm so happy and so thrilled to be your friend.

Thank you Susan. And we keep in touch.

Susan: Okay. Thanks Celine. I appreciate you.

Celine: Great insights. Thank you all for listening. You'll find more info in Dare to Un-Lead, the book. And all links in the podcast episode description. 

And now what else? Action! To explore further and apply these ideas to your own context, reach out to me celine@weneedsocial.com Let's un-lead together!

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